The. Army Aviation: Alternatives to the 10-year Service Obligation Anything and everything related to or affecting US Army Aviation. The Army should be able to meet their quota through CAREER Enlisted personnel ONLY if they must. If youre worried about frequent moves disrupting your family life, picking a community with few basing locations is a viable option for Active Duty. They might be stuck on Active Duty slightly longer than Stan, but hed have to spend at least a couple of years at a regional airline to even start competing for major airline jobs. 10 Year ADSO Discussion - Vertical Reference Helicopter Forums Soldiers pilot a CH-47 Chinook helicopter during a training flight over the city of Erbil in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, May 23, 2020. I will still try to join but maybe that's because I'm retarded, Guess my packet will go back on the share drive. This ADSO will likely cause a sharp decline in recruiting among cadets selecting their branches and enlisted soldiers and civilians interested in becoming Army pilots. I'd sign a 15 year ADSO if they gave me an age waiver (I'm only 35 not 65!). Finally, the thing not being said about sending senior NCOs to flight school is the socialization at the company level piece. Even if the increase in commitment lowers the civilian WOFT applicantnumbers, the in house career Enlisted pool will fill the void. That's the Army's ace in the hole. Suddenly, Active Duty isnt looking that bad, right? So 6 years from ALE graduation day? Ironically, the reason why Congress established a limit on entry into flight training is because the Army in the late 60's and early 70's started to funnel relatively large numbers of maneuver General Officers through flight school. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. His deployment vulnerability continues for even a couple of years after his seasoning orders are over. Must be a volunteer just like airborne. Especially since TN he Chinooks are B Co 2-104 from CTARNG and I was the CDR and PC sitting in the left of the Chinook in the foreground on the left. Privacy Policy. One year dedicated to reset, one to training, one to deployment. These investments set the Army apart from all the branches, he said. This mindset is far from universal, but its prevalent enough that the Academy actually had pilot slots go unfilled a few years ago! NG will have 10 years. Given the pandemic's direct and indirect effects on the aviation industry, is that even going to a concern going forward. As a result, the US Army Aviation Center of Excellence initiated a survey to better inform future incentive and quality of life programs designed to increase retention.. More than likely the Lts selected will be lower on the Order of Merit List. It's a great time to apply to become a pilot, and [Soldiers] can get in with a high school degree. Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy recently signed a memorandum that increased the ADSOor active duty service obligationfor Army pilots. I'm roaring and ready to go. While I continue to assert this is far better than becoming an Active Duty pilot through the USAF Academy, ROTC, or OTS, I worry that Ive done people a disservice by making the Active Duty pilot career path seem too unattractive. A reduction in accessions will turn a long-term solution into a short-term problem. SUPERSEDED AR 600-8-29, 02/25/2005; SUPERSEDED ARMY DIR 2019-30, 10/01/2019: Footnotes: https://armypubs.army.mil 03-APPLICABLE TO ARNG UNITS: Security Classification : UNCLASSIFIED: Dist Restriction Code : A APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION IS UNLIMITED: Changes The Army has more career Enlisted willing to cross over for the opportunity in being an Officer and increasein pay for the family, with or without a degree. Prospective warrant officers can see that the Army is having trouble retaining pilots, and they can also see that increasing the service obligation by four years works against their best interests. So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a suddenBAM! Deployed Civil Engineers https://www.dvidshub.net/image/491088/deployed-civil-engineers. Start date has no impact on this. Thereafter, the ADSO incurred pursuant to the Army Branch for ADSO Program will be served concurrently with any other non-statutory ADSOs. Heres some humor about the topic too https://thefrontlines.com/comics/army-pilots-beware/. The Army has had pilot shortages off and on ever since I can remember. Required fields are marked *. If you want military aviation to be a part of your life for more than 10 years, possibly even 20+ years, you should pursue any path that will get you there! That is completely and totally gone. Although its less common to get more than 6-12 months of your ADSC forgiven under this program, that still gets you off Active Duty sooner than expected. 10 Year ADSO : r/Armyaviation - reddit Were you planning on doing it for less than 10 years?, His answer was, Of course not. I'm about to retire from the Air Force as an engineer, O-4, mostly dest and staff job. Often times these decisions being made do more harm than good, and cause a tremendous amount of work (just look at our administrative packet processes). Army Aviation: Alternatives to the 10-year Service Obligation That's my issue (age waiver). Very true. Aircraft like the E-3 dont have many bases. These cadets may not be willing to forgo an extra four years of civilian work experience to serve as aviation officers. Across the force, warrant officer recruiters are actively on the lookout to fill their ranks. Were looking at troops selected for flight training in the fiscal year 2021 and beyond.. Cadets, who have not experienced the Army for even one day as an officer, are now asked to commit up to eleven years for the opportunity to fly for six yearsif they are luckywhile spending the rest of that time on staff, in professional military education, or in broadening assignments. The Army will continue to honor all GRADSO contracts for officers from YGs 2006-2013. I assume if you're not in flight school by that date, your commitment is just as long as the Air Force if not a little bit longer. A regular Active Duty pilot career path. So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a sudden.BAM! Im scheduled to graduate, 1st or 2nd week of September. Exit surveys are important, but those only capture the opinion of those whom the Army has already lost. Serving on Active Duty is also the only way to get an overseas flying assignment. Starting in October, all personnel selected to attend the Armys initial entry aviation training will incur an ADSO of ten years upon graduation from flight traininga dramatic increase from the previous six-year commitment. I ended up discovering that Stan was most worried about frequent moves and long deployments stressing his family during an Active Duty flying career. Raising the service commitment ignores the actual root causes. With a 10 year ADSO and an 8 year max time in service requirementit significantly reduces the in house pool as well. No one knows somehow, my S1 doesnt know either. Another disparity is the pay inequality between the militarys pilots. What is the real answer? Having looked at these options, lets go back to our original thought: If you missed your shot at the Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path are you screwed? Its creepy; Im scared Ill go to get out and theyll be like nah man you have 3 more years. How can I show that my BrADSO wasnt taken? Especially if they view retention as a big enough problem to justify an additional 4 year commitment from aviators. I crushed the SIFT, passed my flight physical, have a great OML standing, etc., so I should have a good chance of getting my top pick. Not difficult for the Army in finding 300 additional NCOs for the WOFT program if need be. Ideally, hed also earn his Instrument Rating, and build as much experience as possible. COVID has taken care of the airline hiring problem for the next three to five years, making the issueance of an increased ADSO redundant. People tend to forget, aportion of the street2seat WOFT applicants areprior service. More career Enlisted apply than street2seat on a yearly basis. So Army. It turns out that even one year is a big difference. Yeah a lot of questions for those of us that came into this planning on a 6 year deal. If the civilians don't want to join, not a problem. Yes, , and its important to get there as quickly as you can because, . I've been in the Army for a long time, and it's never been worse than now. This could be a few weeks TDY, or a multi-month move. This 10 year commitment will definitely dissuade him from the Army. What a joke. I think that mindser still exists. These figures do not include initial trainingthey solely account for the time and cost associated with the platform-specific training. The security accrediation level of this site is Unclassified FOUO and below. Is a 10-year Active Duty ADSC so terrible that its worth passing up? (Yes, they say ADSO instead of ADSC because the Army and the Air Force refuse to do anything the same since they divorced back in 47.) There are also discussions within the Army aviation community of additional changes that would make becoming a warrant officer even less appealing. We dont have good measurements out there right now to tell us why an aviator is getting out of the force. Without useful data, the Army cannot implement targeted retention solutions. Lets assume though that Stan can get hired by a unit, and is scheduled to start UPT as soon as his regular ADSC is up. What if you transfer from being an officer with 8 years of service (including enlisted time) to being warrant aviation? It explains how to perform well in your training, I dont hold back when people ask me the best way to become a. is to get hired directly by a Guard or Reserve unit and let them send you to UPT. Quote zaurus Members 280 Gender:Male Posted June 6, 2020 Alice's restaurant This may be because the Army has not undertaken the same in-depth approach to understanding this problem as other services. Ideally, you should enlist with one of those units as soon as youre old enough and serve part-time while you complete college. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Just like privates do certain tasks, junior warrant officers perform certain work as well, and I've personally seen a few folks not being able to deal with that change. Not sure. Not saying I would want the out but, contractually wouldnt there be something to be said for Breach of contract here? The report focused on the unmet demand for pilots in the commercial aviation sector that has attracted military pilots. If people don't want to serve, you are actually harming readiness, not helping it. My talk with Stan covered all of these, so my next question was, How long were you planning on being involved in military aviation then? For most, Top Gun played at least a little bit of a role. I got out because I wanted to fly, but kept getting stuck in staff positions where I either couldn't fly, or had limited opportunities to fly. I just signed my WOFT contract at MEPS on Thursday with the idea of a 6 year ADSO. Currently in common core here and we still don't know if it applies or not. I assume if you're not finished withflight school by 30 Sep 20, your commitment is just as long as the Air Force if not a little bit longer. They require more time for people to gain experience. That's the Army's ace in the hole. However, if you missed that boat youre far better off taking an Active Duty UPT slot than trying Stans way and doing 5 years as in a non-flying job. That's not what I am talking about. How is my list for OCS? : r/army - Reddit As several others have said, this policy fails to address the root problems high OPTEMPO, poor quality of life, irrelevant mandatory training, etc. People tend to forget, aportion of street to seat WOFT applicants areprior service. Army rescinds COVID-19 vaccination requirements, $84 million contract awarded for Excalibur replenishment, Army officer part of newly resumed cooperation for International Space Station, Chief Warrant Officer 3 Sarah Stone is just one of four, Army CIO speaks at Army Europe and Africa 2022 Cybersecurity Summit, Transcript: Media Roundtable with Mr. Douglas Bush, ASA for AL&T, July 27, 2022, Transcript: Media Roundtable with Dr. Raj Iyer, Army Chief Information Officer, and LTG John B. Morrison, Jr., Army Deputy Chief of Staff G-6 June 09, 2022, Vietnamese-American service members parallel paths to the American dream, Bengali chief warrant officer finds the American dream through serving, Soldiers inspire new Army directive on parenthood, pregnancy and postpartum policies, U.S. Army STAND-TO! Well, when you have a system that initially punishes critical thinking, then requires it later on down the line, you're creating your own problem that ends up causing its own problems. That hesitation will open up slots for others further down an OML or with less stellar accomplishments, potentially creating other issues related to performance or aptitude. From this mid-grade officer's perspective this constant obsession with readiness is actually detrimental to readiness. Reading this in Jan 21, after 10 months of pandemic lockdown. Whatever path you end up taking, please consider taking a UPT slot when offered. However, increasing the service obligation of new pilots is the wrong course of action. You're losing highly skilled aviators that took millions of dollars and 5-10 years to train. Their workload is increased several fold versus the units that they are supporting. With this data, the Army can tailor solutions to address the issues that cause pilots to leave. Press J to jump to the feed. While a longer ADSO may help from looking solely at the numbers, it won't be effective at retaining quality talent. If I am branched Aviation, this ADSO will begin upon completion of my flight school ADSO. Aviators selected for DH can expect an accompanied increase in flight pay from $650/month to $1,000/month at 10 years of aviation service (YAS) . It never ends. Press J to jump to the feed. The root cause cited by those transitioning at various levels has related to toxic climates, mismanagement of professional profiles, quality of life, and unit culture. However, on the surface, we see that Stans plan is likely to get a pilot to the airlines a couple of years before his peers. Next, hed go to his first assignment. I remember similar drama during my Fourth Class (freshman) year at the USAF Academy as we were forced to sign a paper accepting a similar ADSC increase in case of getting an Air Force pilot slot. Again, 70 percent of Army pilots are warrant officers, while Air Force pilots are all officers. Although its less common to get more than 6-12 months of your ADSC forgiven under this program, that still gets you off Active Duty sooner than expected. ROTC Scholars have a 4-year commissioning ADSO. It is the cheapest method for increasing retention rates, delivers a long-term investment in human capital, and provides a more predictable model for pilot production requirements. More than likely, the aviations slots will be filled by personnel lower on the OML. The B-2 about to get fuel: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/5765915/b-2-and-boom. Im a career guy so I dont mind but initially it can be daunting. That means, we need you! The US Army recently changed its aviation Active Duty Service Obligation from 8 to 10 years and created an absolute uproar. This mindset is far from universal, but its prevalent enough that the Academy actually had pilot slots go unfilled a few years ago! Clear editor. At least in the early 2000s, there was the ARFORGEN cycle. This is doubly applicable for aviation formations. I'd love to see credit for the photo. Hah right. However, we have to look at more than just the number of years involved. Now that Im older and wiser, one of my many side-hustles is working as an Admission Liaison Officer for the USAF Academy. It must continue to remove burdens that plague the warrant officer community, such as non-pilot-related duties and frequent deployments to combat training centers. Lets compare these options to see why. The views expressed are those of the author and do not reflect the official position of the United States Military Academy, Department of the Army, or Department of Defense. Over the last few years, Army senior leaders took steps to address the pilot retention challenge. Since classes are generally pretty well mixed with people with respect to when they commissioned, the first couple of classes must have been a mix of people on the old 6 and the new 10. Age should be liftedI'm in my mid fifties and still fly helicopters (civilian market) for a living. 9 month rotations are followed by field time, followed by gunnery, followed by EIB, followed by a CTC, etc. Deployments are great flying, but terrible on a family. While I continue to assert this is far better than becoming an Active Duty pilot through the. Army Career Satisfaction Program But, we want as many people as we can get to apply. Why or why not? Does anyone know the current selection breakdown of street to seat vs prior service? You cannot paste images directly. I bet less than 300 WOFT selected are non prior service on a annual basis. Nope. If you graduate after 1 Oct 2020 expect a 10 year service obligation. This is the second part of a series about choosing between military and civilian career options. 10 Year ADSO : Armyaviation There are some other prerequisites they have to meet. It is for anyone graduating flight school and should be based on your graduation date. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Your link has been automatically embedded. Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. Many aviators got tripped up by it in the last few years in the push to get to the airlines. Although its easy to feel stuck on Active Duty, there are also options for getting out early. The Army likes to have a balance between the two but they can change that over night. Within the company we tried to level out flight time to give the senior guys some rest, but the battalion/brigade leadership was too risk averse and pushed back. The USMA/ROTC graduating cadets will make the decision on the 12 year commitment in 2021. That seems like a lifetime to an 18 year old. What are the chances of getting picked up. review for a restaurant or somethingonly those who either #LOVEDIT or #hatedit:( ever write reviews, so it's hard to know what the experience is like for the average man. Stan was worried about his Active Duty career path (Option #2) because it would ensure several years of moves and deployments. Anything and everything related to or affecting US Army Aviation. Aviation Bonus (AvB) Program. Army Pilots put up with less Army BS and get paid more. The 10-year service obligation is the result of a numbers-related calculus related to Army manning and will not address the problems that make Aviators leave. One of the reasons for the increased ADSO was related to demand from the private sector for pilots. pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the I greatly appreciate the responsiveness of this community and the depth of feedback y'all have provided, but I want to be sure that the consensus expressed herein is not just the culmination of a bunch of bad experiences but is actually a systemic issue. Do most of your fellow aviators love it? Instead of giving bonuses of several hundred thousand dollars to keep pilots like our Air Force brethren get, the Army decides the best course of action is to just make it mandatory 10 years like them but not receive the pay. Back To Top That 10 year obligation doesn't start until you finish flight school. army aviation 10 year adso. Why not allowing retired personnel to do what they always wanted? 10 year ADSO started FY21. WASHINGTON -- Starting in October, commissioned and warrant officers selected for initial entry flight training will be required to serve at least a decade once they become an Army aviator,. Yes, life there is fantastic, and its important to get there as quickly as you can because Seniority is Everything. A chief warrant officer 3 with eight years of service earns $5093.70 per month, whereas a captain with eight years of service earns $6435.00 per month, a difference of $1,341.30 in favor of non-Army pilots. If you want to. self refer to ASAP, mental health, yea you can get out but you're not going to fly on the outside. , I knew to ask lots of questions and take the time to dig down to the primary factors motivating this line of thinking. PDF Aviation Service of Rated Army Officers - United States Army I ended up not joining because they increased the ADSO. Army Career Satisfaction Program When I got selected it was a 60/40 split between street to seat and prior. Holla at yo boy and lemme know what y'all are thinking. The increased ADSO shows that senior leaders fundamentally do not understand the issues, and it will do nothing to address the attrition as the years go on.